Roger Einstoss – The Future of Software Development: AI, Leadership, and Entrepreneurship

NOTES

Roger on LinkedIn

Braintly

Entrepreneur’s Organization

Book Recommendations: Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman and Get A Grip: An Entrepreneurial Fable . . . Your Journey to Get Real, Get Simple, and Get Result by Gino Wickman and Mike Paton

Roger shared insights into his educational background, highlighting his decision to pursue a technical school specializing in informatics, ultimately leading him to a software engineering degree. He recounted his early professional experiences, including his first job as a junior developer and his transition into management, where he learned the complexities of leading a team and navigating interpersonal dynamics.

As we delved deeper into his story, Roger explained how he and his co-founders identified a significant opportunity in the nearshore outsourcing market. They founded Braintly in 2012, and within a year, they secured their first client in Silicon Valley. Roger emphasized the importance of networking and collaboration, mainly through his involvement with the Entrepreneurs Organization (EO), which has provided him invaluable support and connections throughout his entrepreneurial journey.

We discussed Braintly’s services, including staff augmentation and complete project teams, and how they cater to the needs of U.S. companies looking to build engineering teams in Latin America. Roger elaborated on their projects, often working with technology-driven companies that rely on software for their operations.

Much of our conversation focused on artificial intelligence’s impact on the software development landscape. Roger shared his thoughts on the future of work for developers, the importance of maintaining foundational knowledge despite the rise of AI tools, and how Braintly is leveraging AI to enhance its recruitment processes.

As we wrapped up the episode, Roger reflected on the challenges and rewards of being an entrepreneur. He candidly discussed the difficulties of making tough decisions regarding team members and his company’s profound impact on the lives of talented individuals in Argentina, providing them with opportunities to work for U.S. companies and improve their quality of life.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in entrepreneurship, software development, or the evolving landscape of work in the age of AI. Roger’s story is inspiring and offers practical insights for aspiring entrepreneurs looking to navigate their journeys in the business world.

Kyle Knowles:
Welcome back to Make or Manage Your Money with Kyle Knowles, the podcast where we explore the journeys of entrepreneurs who’ve successfully navigated the world of making, managing, and of course, money. Today we have a fascinating guest all the way from Argentina, Roger Einstoss, the CEO and co-founder of Braintly. Braintly connects U.S. companies with top-tier software engineering talent in Latin America. They’ve worked with big names like Volkswagen and Nikon, helping them build incredible products while enjoying the cost savings of nearshore development. Roger’s story is a classic maker-to-manager tale. He started out coding as a teenager, then built his skills through university and early jobs. He co-founded Braintley with some of his colleagues, turning their shared passion into a thriving international business. In this episode, we dive deep into Roger’s entrepreneurial journey from selling burned CDs as a kid to leading a global team. The rise of nearshore outsourcing and how Brantley leverages Latin America’s talent pool. The impact of AI on software development and how Roger’s company is embracing it. The importance of networking for entrepreneurs, especially Roger’s experience with the entrepreneurs organization, EO. So grab your headphones, get ready to be inspired, and let’s learn from the best. Roger, welcome to the show.

Roger Einstoss: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Kyle Knowles: Yeah, I’ve been really excited to meet with you since our intro call. I wanted to ask you, were there any signs that you would be an entrepreneur when you were younger?

Roger Einstoss: Well, that’s a good start. I think the first one was when I was 10 maybe or 11 years old I started like selling music in CDs. Obviously it was illegal so I’m not sure if we can tell this story, but it was in the years of Napster’s, the Casa, all that music that you were able to download from the internet. I was 10 or 11. This is the light 80s, like 98, 99, 1998, 1999. So I think that was the first signal that I saw that, okay, yeah, I want to make some money. I know I want to make something. And more than being like a normal 10 years old guy.

Kyle Knowles: Okay. So, uh, you’re nine or 10 and Napster was a beautiful thing. I remember Napster. Well, it was amazing that you could just find songs, obscure songs and things you couldn’t even find in stores anymore. Cause they weren’t selling those songs or those CDs or those albums anymore. You started making CDs, I assume from Napster and selling them. Yeah.

Roger Einstoss: So yeah. Sending to my friends, like compilations, you know, I remember that in those times you could maybe record, burn was the right term for that, burn like 10 songs or 12 songs in a CD. So that was also the moment when I started like creating a kind of love for the Beatles. We talk about that. You can see my Hofner bass.

Kyle Knowles: I love it.

Roger Einstoss: I started with the Beatles, like creating those CDs, maybe selling to more, I think, friends and family. It was not a business at all.

Kyle Knowles: But you figured out how to make something and then managed the selling of it, right?

Roger Einstoss: Yeah. Yeah. And the second, the second step was when I was 15, I started my small company of giving classes to all people here in Argentina, like spreadsheets, Excel, PowerPoint, Word, Windows, you know, like it was a kind of service for computers, but also helping people in their 60s that wanted to know how to use PowerPoint or email or those things. I had a couple of clients when I was 15. Well, that was a time where I also started coding and I realized that, okay, I want to do something with informatics or with computers. I wasn’t pretty sure about what was that thing, but I knew that computers were the answer in certain way.

Kyle Knowles: What made you decide to do software engineering for a living?

Roger Einstoss: Yeah, well, when I was sending the primary school in Argentina at the age of 12, I decided to go to change my school and I went to a technical school. And I knew in that time that that technical school had like a specialization in informatics, but that was a couple of years later at the age of 15. So I did the first part of the high school knowing that I wanted to do something with informatics. Then when I had to decide between, okay, do I have to decide informatics or maybe being an accountant or something like that, I decided informatics. I started coding with Visual Basic 6. and PHP. And then when I graduated from high school, it was like the normal path, you know, I was enjoying the things that I were doing. And it was a normal thing to say, okay, now I have to go to the, to the university. And the careers were maybe three or four, like software engineer, software analyst, and another career that in Argentina it’s called like a scientist, software scientist or something like that. So I thought, okay, I want to be an engineer. And it was something big for me, you know, because I remember that when I was a kid, I used to see to people, to engineers, like something, wow, this guy is an engineer. It’s something impossible to achieve. But I did it and I started going and started progressing in the career. And five years later I got my degree. So it was a process, but it was not difficult for me. It was something like pretty straightforward.

Kyle Knowles: And you enjoyed doing it.

Roger Einstoss:: Yeah, a hundred percent.

Kyle Knowles: Okay. And then after you graduated, you started working at an organization, a corporation?

Roger Einstoss: Yeah, after graduating from high school, I worked my whole career.

Kyle Knowles: Oh, okay. While you were at university, you were working.

Roger Einstoss: Yeah. Yeah. You know that here in Argentina, university is free. It’s public and free. That’s a, that’s one of the big things that we have as a country. And that’s why we produce tons of, of good talent, not only engineers, everything. When I graduated from high school, I had like three years of experience coding at school, not professional coding, but I had experience. So I started working for a company that was from a teacher. It was a teacher at high school. It was my teacher. And when we finished the year, he came to me and told me, Hey, I want you to join my company as a developer, as a junior developer. So I said, yes, of course I want to have my first experience. And it worked like almost for four years there. And it was perfect because I remember I used to work like six or seven hours a day with a lot of flexibility. So it was an amazing experience.

Kyle Knowles: with all that experience, and then with your degree, I assume you were promoted or you got a job at a different company?

Roger Einstoss: I got a job at a different company. I joined the second company that I worked for. The third one was Brangley, my company. The second one, it was like a radio company, like multimedia company here in Argentina. That’s the company where I met Facu, one of my co-founders. I met him in the company. He was like the infrastructure and informatics chief and I was the digital products chief, but it was a kind of manager. It was an upgrade for me because I went from being a developer to being a kind of manager of a small structure. I mean, it was one developer, one designer, and me as a manager that also, I also was calling. So it was weird, but it was a great experience because I changed the industry. I went from a software factory to a like a traditional company, like a multimedia company. And I had my first experience like leading people, hiring developers, making interviews, leading with internal clients, which is different to lead with external clients. So it was also an amazing experience.

Kyle Knowles: Yeah, and how did you find that, you know, the podcast is called maker, manager money. And the idea behind that is, you know, you have to make something, then you have to manage something. And on the other side of that is the money. And a lot of founders and entrepreneurs I found are makers. They start out in software development, much like you did making things, right? And then they move into management and that’s kind of everyone’s career progression, pretty much even if you’re not in software, because managers are paid more money. But how did you find the transition from being a maker and moving to a manager?

Roger Einstoss: It was really tough because nobody taught me about how to do it. I just. got the job and started doing it. And I remember that in the first moment I had problems with the internal team because one of the team members was waiting for a promotion and then I came into the company. and took the role, and she was expecting that, why I’m not the person for that role, so she was always fighting. It was not a good experience, but at the end, we ended up having a good relationship. 15 years later, I think, yeah, it’s almost 15 or more, almost 20 years later, I realized that she helped me a lot because I was too optimistic about how people work. And when you are a leader, when you are a manager, which I think are different things, being a manager and being a leader, but when you are managing people, you have to understand that Not all the people will do the things as you are waiting. Not all the people will have the same accountability about the tasks. And that’s not enough for deciding firing someone. Maybe it’s okay, the amount of accountability that they have for this role, and you have to deal with that. And you have to understand that, okay, I’m deciding that it’s 6 p.m. and I will not go home because I have these things to get done and I will be at the office and she or he it’s 6 p.m. and they just go home and you have to be comfortable with that understanding that not all the people will work the way you are expecting them to work or the way you work. And that was a big learning for me, even later for founding the company and starting building the very first team.

Kyle Knowles: Let’s talk about when and how you and your two co-founders decided to become founders and entrepreneurs.

Roger Einstoss: Well, it was Facu, the one who started telling me, Hey, we have to do something. We have a big opportunity. He’s a visionary of the company. And nowadays he has like the official title of visionary of the company, but Trying to think 15 years ago and coming back to that moment, he also had the vision that we had something really good in our hands. Like we were developers, we were technical people, but also with soft skills. And we had an opportunity of working from Argentina to the States, even helping in that moment, different kind of companies here in Argentina. So he was the one who started saying, hey, Roger, we have to do something. We can’t be here at this company forever. We have an opportunity, we should start. So we started looking for clients, not knowing how. I mean, it’s something that right now, nowadays, we still are looking for new finds of getting new clients. Imagine in that moment, like not having any idea of how to run a company or even more, get a client. The first opportunity came by a friend of mine who was working for a startup in San Francisco, in Silicon Valley. And they were looking for a software engineer, for a developer in Latin America. And he told me, Hey, Roger, we are looking for a developer. Do you want to be that developer, I mean, with your company. So I obviously said, of course, I’m in. And that’s how we started with that first client in Silicon Valley. It was like going from zero to 100 overnight, working for clients in Argentina, in our jobs, in our official jobs, changing to American mindset, trying to understand another language. Remember that English is not our native language. So it was full of challenges, but we did it.

Kyle Knowles: That’s awesome. So you founded it abruptly in 2013, or was it 2010? Were you coming up on 15 years?

Roger Einstoss: No, it was in 2012. the end of 2012, and we, we, we got the first client in 2013, maybe, yeah, almost a year after starting. Cause you know that when you start, it’s like, okay, let’s, let’s pick a name and you start, but then we just sat and wait for the first client.

Kyle Knowles: And how did you choose the name Brantley? What does that mean?

Roger Einstoss: Well, that’s a good story. It’s something funny because it’s like when you buy a dog or you adopt a dog and you always… I know, for instance, we know that if we have a dog, we want to name it like Pixel because it’s funny for us, the word. But I’m sure that When the moment arrives, we will not be sure of naming it Pixel. So the same happens with a company. You are full of names, but when the moment arrived, we didn’t know what was the correct name. So we started playing with a tool, like a web tool, that used to merge different kinds of words. So I swear that I can’t remember the words, but I think that it was something like brain and brilliant. So one of the choices that the merging of brain and brilliant outcome was frankly We thought okay. It’s a good name. It’s easy to pronounce for the States not for Argentina It’s difficult in Argentina for for for people in Argentina pronounced frankly They say something like but I’m Lee or it’s difficult to say but for the States was brainly. It’s obvious so Well, we also saw that the domain was available. So that’s an important thing, too. The .com, .com, .ar, which is the Argentinian domain. So we just moved forward. And we thought, OK, it’s just a name. If we have to change it in five years, we can do it.

Kyle Knowles: Yeah. It’s over 10 years now. So congratulations for being in business over 10 years. Amazing. Very few last even five years. So it’s amazing. You guys have been in business for over 10 years. Thank you. Tell me what services you offer at Braintley. How do you guys make money?

Roger Einstoss: Well, it’s, it’s a pretty simple model. We are helping companies, especially in the U S. to build their engineering teams in Latin America. So the basic case studio is a client, like a small or medium sized company in the States that wants developers in Latin America. And they don’t know how to hire those developers, how to pay them, how to manage them. They want developers or they want engineers in general. I would say developers, project managers, quality assurance, whatever. So they come to us and we help them hire that people. in two modes. One mode is staff augmentation. So if the client has a technical team, a CTO, VP of engineering, or something like that, we can assign the developers without management. So we recruit the developers, we make the hard and soft interviews, the technical interviews, we vet the person, and then we present it to you and say, hey, He’s Roger, he’s a software engineer. This is his experience. This is the test that we run over him. And if you decide to move forward with that person, we hire that person. We take care of administrative things, taxes, paying them in Latin America, having them happy, everything, and you pay us. We have a legal entity in the States, so you will be hiring an American company, but having the chance of hiring people from Latin America. The other model, which is not so different, is when the client doesn’t have a technical team, maybe a founder team that is not technical, we assign an entire team, not only one developer, which we call a squad. And it has a project manager, a quality assurance and a developer. In that business model, the economics are the same. I mean, the administrative thing is the same. So we hire the people, we recruit the people, we take care of those things. So you can focus on your business. And we help through the project manager to create and think the roadmap, to execute the tasks. lead the team. We in this model, we involve much more people in your business model because you are open to that because you are not technical. So you need someone that can help you translate your business thoughts into technical or software solutions. So we get more and more involved. So Those are basically the two business models, which are almost the same because at the end of the day is we are your partner in Latin America. If you want to hire developers in Latin America, we can help you no matter if you need an entire team or not.

Kyle Knowles: Okay. And I understand that some of your clients have been Volkswagen, Nikon, T-Mobile as well. Yeah. And what kinds of things do you build and make for different clients?

Roger Einstoss: Yeah, most of the times we work in the car product of the client. 100% of our clients are technological companies. I mean, it’s difficult for us to work with a company that, I know, build buildings. because they are not a technical or technological company. So we are not working like in ERP or Salesforce integrations in those things. We work more with technological companies that And I define technological company as companies that needs the software to operate. If they don’t have the software, they can’t operate basically. So that’s why software and having a good engineering team, it’s important for them because if they can’t move forward with the thoughts, with the roadmap, with the features that they need to get done, they will probably get stuck from the business point of view. So for Volkswagen, for instance, we worked two years ago or three maybe, and we developed an entire native application in React Native for internal use. So it was an application for the employees. in Argentina and Brazil. They use the application for checking in and out when they arrive to the industry. They also have news, have a different kind of systems to notify to their bosses, okay, I will be offline this day for reason A or B. you know, all the classical features that an internal team needs in a factory, which is not the same that an agency like us. So it was done for a team of five people. It had like 3,000 users per month, which is a good number for an internal application. And then they took that application and they used it for different kinds of countries, but we weren’t part of that project because I know that in these multinational companies, maybe they already have a contract to make developments with, I know. The states, they will not hire another agency. They will take what Brazil done and say, okay, we will do this, but with our suppliers. So yeah, that was an exciting project.

Kyle Knowles: You built the whole thing from scratch or did you work with a development team in-house at Volkswagen to build it?

Roger Einstoss: Both. Sometimes we build things from scratch with a startup or with a company that say, imagine We work with startups, but also imagine a big company that have the core product and say, Hey, I want to create this new business unit, but I can’t do it with my team because they are so focused on the daily things. So they hire us to create that new product. So for instance, in those cases, we work from scratch, creating a product, thinking the architecture, the design, everything. In other cases, in staff augmentation, for instance, we work with software that maybe, I don’t know, was done a year ago, two years ago, five years ago. And they have their team and we plug our team to the client’s team to empower the whole team and have like more capacity and more ability to develop more and more things. So the answer is both. We can work in both scenarios.

Kyle Knowles: That’s awesome. So have you ever worked with a solopreneur, for example, some fashion designer that has these clothes and wants to sell them and maybe you could build them an app, like a retail app for their new fashion line that they’re launching?

Roger Einstoss: We used to do it, but we don’t do it anymore because we are in the last three years, we are focusing more in companies because we understand that it’s better for our business. Because companies can give us like more predictability about revenue, about long-term projects. And when you work with really, really early startups or solopreneurs, many times you know that it’s like a one-shot project, like two months and that’s all. And from the operational point of view, hiring an entire team for two months for us, it’s It’s really expensive, so we can’t do it. So that’s why we used to work a lot with those things. I really enjoy working with early stage entrepreneurs, and that’s why I’m also a mentor in some organizations, because I really enjoy from the personal point of view. But we decided a couple of years ago that for the company, we needed to focus on another segment of clients.

Kyle Knowles: That makes sense. It makes good business sense to have long term customers and clients and, and you don’t get that if someone just wants a one off app like that. So that makes sense. My son’s majoring in computer science software development in college. What does the future of work look like for a software developer?

Roger Einstoss:Well, uh, I think the answer is nobody knows. Maybe Elon Musk knows. The only thing that I know is that it’s obvious, but it will change for sure. I mean, and if someone thinks that developers will, will still work in the same way that they are, they are working today in five years, I think it’s, it’s blind. I don’t know. I don’t think that developers will disappear. I think that In a couple of years, getting senior developers will be difficult, because you know that for having a senior developer, you need a junior developer. And all the developers that are starting working or developing right now, they are so focused on working with AI, which is OK, because it’s not the future, it’s the present. So I think that with this thing of AI, they are missing the academic thing of developing. Learning about design patterns, learning about scalability, learning about many things that they don’t need to focus because they have just GPT or a pilot or cursor that will solve that problem for them. So I think that in a couple of years, it will be difficult to get good senior developers. So that could be a problem. And also, I also think that will change the work for developers because it will be easier to start being a developer. So for instance, I know all these coding schools that you know, that, that we have like a boom of coding schools during COVID. it’s getting difficult for them right now because with the eruption of AI, most of the people don’t need coding school anymore. They can see a couple of videos and start like writing code using Jadgpt. For instance, we did an experience, an experiment, a couple of years, a couple of months ago, sorry, with my Fakou, my co-founder. He’s not a developer. He’s a technical person, but not a developer. And we gave to him one of the challenges, the technical challenges that we do with the people. And we tell him, try to solve it using Jadgpt. And he did it. And we empower candidates to use AI when they solve the challenges. But then the important thing is having the ability to defend that challenge. And that’s the thing that that I’m sure that will be difficult in a couple of years. Having people with strong knowledge, with strong fundaments and the ability to defend the solutions or the thoughts that they have. So it’s difficult to say where are we going, but We have to hop on the train and be part of that way because otherwise we will not have work in five years. So we have to do it all. I mean, companies, non-technical clients, developers, designers, everyone, everyone must do it.

Kyle Knowles: So what is your recommendation to someone that’s going into software development to kind of help them stay ahead of the AI curve and still, you know, learn and retain the information that you’re expecting from senior developers?

Roger Einstoss: I would say that reading a book. like a design patterns book, watching YouTube videos, going to some, not bootcamp, but some course or something like that, that they can learn how is ChatGPT doing things behind the scenes. So if they have at least some kind of knowledge about why ChatGPT is saying, hey, let’s use this pattern, for instance, or let’s think this kind of infrastructure. I think in a couple of years that people will make the difference. Even today, we realize that we have many clients, we know that we have many technical clients that say, we don’t want people from bootcamps. because they know, and it’s nothing against people that went to bootcamps, but it’s really, really huge, the gap between someone who went to the university and studied like a software engineering career and someone who learned coding by themselves. Obviously, making generalizations, it’s not the best thing. I’m not part of that, but it’s like a tendency that you usually can see. So the same thing here, they have to learn to code using AI because it’s the way, but don’t forget about going to the library or understanding what’s happening behind the scenes of all that new way that is happening.

Kyle Knowles: That makes sense. So since you’re probably using AI for some things, debugging or other things like that, how are you able to explain to customers, explain to clients, you’re using AI and as far as billing and things like that, are you just getting more done now? Are you more efficient because of AI and you have those conversations with clients or what? What are they asking you about AI and what are you telling them?

Roger EiRoger Einstoss: Yeah, they are not asking questions in general, or a general question is for like a more traditional business, maybe saying, Hey, I know that I have to do something with AI, but I don’t know how or what. So help me with that. But, but we, we show them, we, we are convinced that we don’t, we don’t have nothing to hide. I mean, we want them to know that, that all developers are using AI and And thanks to that, they are writing better code and much quicker. So I think it’s part of the game and we have to play it. For instance, with some roles, we are also using AI for making the interviews. So some steps of our interview, it’s made by AI. with someone that says, hey, I’m Robert, your AI interviewer. How are you today, guy? And you have to answer. And it decides what kind of questions we’ll do depending on your answer. So we are testing. I mean, we have to be innovating all the time. And it’s something that, you know, that I talk with many recruiting agencies in Argentina, especially, and I think most of them, they are not seeing that. They are so secure that the way that they are recruiting now will be the same for the next 10 years, that they are not doing nothing. And I think that they should, at least we are doing that.

Kyle Knowles: And is that something that you service that you pay for or something that you guys wrote yourself?

Roger Einstoss: You know, it’s something that we are paying. It’s called micro one micro one. Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Knowles: Micro One is the product.

Roger Einstoss: Yeah, it’s the product. And I mean, we are maybe testing that many things. For instance, we have people that we ask them, hey, we have this tool and we also have the like the real human being interviewer. Are you willing to do both? and then give us your feedback about which one was better and many people many people say no because i don’t have time and it’s okay and other people say yeah obviously because you know that I always say that developers are split between two big worlds, the one that love doing interviews and the one that don’t love doing interviews. I remember when I was a developer, I loved doing interviews because it’s an amazing way of learning new things. Because you go to an interview and the best thing that can happen to you is that they ask things that you don’t know. So you get out of the interview and say, OK, what was this thing that they asked me? I don’t know. So it’s a great way of learning new things. At least it was for me 15 years ago.

Kyle Knowles: Yeah. Interviewing and being, uh, being interviewed, being interviewed and interviewing other people is a great way to learn for sure. So, uh, I was going to ask you, what’s your favorite LLM to use?

Roger Einstoss: Uh, I’m testing, uh, chat, UBT, Claude, um, chat, UBT and Claude are the main ones. Do you have a preference for different tasks or? Yeah, for things that involve images, it’s better ChatGPT, I think. But for instance, for reviewing an email, a follow-up email, or feedback or something like that, it’s better Cloud. I think it’s more natural, or at least I feel that it talks more like me than ChatGPT. You know that ChatGPT introduced like big words and many times remember that my main language it’s not English so if I am using those like amazing words it’s obvious that I didn’t write that. I mean, when I talk with someone, even through email, obviously I do my checks and everything, but they have to know that I’m not a native speaker. I mean, it’s like if I’m talking with you in Spanish, I’m not expecting you to have my accent or don’t miss any sentence or verb or whatever.

Kyle Knowles: We’re using big words, right? We’re using those big words.

Roger Einstoss: Yeah. So I’m using both. Probably more chat GPT. Most of the uses are for social media, writing emails, brainstorming. For instance, now I’m working on the strategy for next year. for the sales strategy and I’m using it like a consultant for thinking about lead generation strategies or I’m planning the events that I will be going to the States next year. I’m thinking, okay, give me a list of the events that match this, this and that. And it’s like a friend that you have sitting next to you and you can talk with.

Kyle Knowles: Yeah, very smart friend that never gets tired and doesn’t have any biases about you or emotional baggage or anything like that. So do you have ChatGPT on your phone then?

RoRoger Einstoss: Yeah, but I use it more from computer. I try not to use my phone to work because it helps me to maintain the work-life balance. I only have Slack and WhatsApp.

Kyle Knowles: Okay. Well, I was just going to tell you that you talked about using ChatGPT to brainstorm, you know, sales strategies and things like that. But one of my favorite uses of ChatGPT is the voice mode and just going on walks and having conversations and brainstorming all kinds of ideas. It keeps the whole transcript. You can ask it to summarize it at the end. What are the next steps? What are the actions? we’ve come up with talking about here and it’s just a wonderful use of AI and chat GPT. I wish Claude would come out with voice mode too so that I can have vocal conversations with Claude as well. I was just going to ask you, how do you use AI at work and do you use it in your personal life and how so? I guess we already talked about emails and responding.

Roger Einstoss: Yeah, that’s the way I use it at work. In my personal life, I use it but I know, I remember this year I went to Miami for an event and I only had like half a day to go to the shopping for Argentinian people. Anyone who is listening to this podcast and know some Argentinian know that every time we go to the States, we go to the shopping because it’s much cheaper than buying in Argentina. And I only have half a day. So I asked ChatGPT, hey, I have First, give me a list of the store that I have in Sobras, which is one of the biggest shopping centers in Miami. So it gave me the list. And then I told him, OK, I want to go to these 20 stores. Please build for me the best way of going through those stores, taking into account that I’m alone, not with the kids. And I’m going in the morning, I remember that I told him, told him, told it. I know if chatGPT is him, her, it. So yeah, I use it from the personal point of view for those things, but not too much.

Kyle Knowles: Awesome. And you’re still involved with the EO as well? Entrepreneurs organization. And you would recommend that to new entrepreneurs?

Roger Einstoss: A hundred percent. Yeah. Yow has been amazing for me. I joined two years and a half ago. It’s a global entrepreneurs network. It has like almost 20,000 members all over the world. I know in the States, Japan, China, Argentina, everywhere. And here in Argentina, we are more than 100 members. It’s amazing because you will find No matter the country you go, I mean, every time I go to the US, I try to meet with people from EO. I know LA, San Francisco, Miami, New York, different chapters in the States. It’s difficult to explain, but the feeling that you have meeting another member from EO in another country, It’s amazing because you have and you get that like instant intimacy, they call it, that you can start sharing feelings, sharing problems about your business. And you always find like really smart people that are running amazing companies or sold their companies. If you’re an entrepreneur and you feel that you are doing it alone, by yourself, not being connected to the ecosystem, I highly recommend joining any network. I mean, I’m part of EO and I highly recommend EO, but It depends on your industry. You have Vistach, EO. We are now trying to join Hamptons in New York. So any kind of organization that can help you be more involved with other people like you that are in the same mood, I would say, like running a company, leading people, having people issues, having issues with clients and having like challenges about how to grow or how to run the company, whatever. It’s, it’s really, really useful.

Kyle Knowles: Awesome. What’s your biggest goal right now, Roger?

Roger Einstoss: Well, keep growing for sure, but that’s like a normal question. I would say to be more specific, to have like more predictable revenue, not revenue, predictable growth, I would say. Because most of our new clients come from referrals. Like we have a client who is happy with us. they refer to us as someone that they trust or they just met in an event and say, hey, if you need developers in LATAM, talk with Roger. And that’s amazing because it seems that they are happy with our work. But the bad thing about that is we can’t predict the amount of leads that we will have. So my main goal next year is working in the lead generation and trying to generate leads in a more predictable way. So not only having the referrals, which are amazing, and we will still like asking our clients for those referrals, but also having another ways of generating leads, going to events, hosting events, podcasting, marketing, I don’t know, many things. And it’s one of the most difficult things for service companies like us, because, I mean, we can’t have just putting an ad in Google because nobody will hire an entire team because just saw you in a Google ad. So Selling a product, I think it’s much easier. Probably product companies will say that selling a service, it’s easier, but that’s my main challenge more than goal.

Kyle Knowles: What’s the book, Roger, that you recommend the most to people?

Roger Einstoss: Thinking Fast and Slow. It’s amazing. one of my favorites. I read, I would say another one. If you are running a company and you have problems with your operations, I read a book called Get a Grip. It’s about how to implement EOS, which is a framework for running companies. We started running EOS two years and a half ago, when I joined EO, I found that framework and I thought, okay, this is the heaven. And I read that book and I don’t know if the book itself, it’s amazing, but it teaches you very, very, uh, in a straightforward way, very easy how to run that framework. And if you are dealing with day by day problems constantly in your company, understanding that book and that framework will change your life. So that’s why I would recommend that book.

Kyle Knowles: Yeah, that’s great. I can’t recommend the book traction enough to people because it’s the entrepreneurial operating system, the blueprint, but I haven’t read Get a Grip yet. So I’m looking forward to reading that. Thanks for the recommendation. And we’re running out of time here. So I just have a few questions left for you, Roger. You saw Paul McCartney in Argentina. And I know I found out that you play guitar and play bass guitar. Are you in a band? Do you write music? And what kinds of music do you like to play?

Roger Einstoss: I’m not in a band, but it’s one of my, my pendings. Um, I don’t write music. I can read music, but I don’t write music. Uh, and my top one band it’s, uh, it’s the Beatles. I love the Beatles. I started listening to them when I was 10, 11. Uh, and it’s part of my life, but I also like some, uh, like national rock from Argentina. Uh, I’m pretty open. I mean, But if I have to answer like a black and white answer, it’s the Beatles. That’s my, my favorite one.

Kyle Knowles: Awesome. So what’s one thing you’d like to change about yourself?

Roger Einstoss: Being less anxious, probably. I’m a really anxious person. I’m much better than. 10 years ago, but, and it’s good for sometimes for the business, but other times having, like, I know when you, when you’re working on sales, you, you can be anxious and it’s difficult many times to deal with that. So it’s something that I’m constantly working to try to change or at least adapt to the situations.

Kyle Knowles: Yeah, I think a lot of entrepreneurs are anxious and get up early and stay up late and those kinds of things. So what are some of the ways you deal with your anxiety?

Roger Einstoss: Music is one of those. Going to the gym, it’s something that I discovered this year. A little bit late in my life, probably, but I’m enjoying that and I’m feeling better with my body and everything. Spending time like no working time like with friends with with the family going on vacations. I really love traveling so every time I can I Go on a short or long vacation with the family. My my my partners always say that I’m taking too much vacations and I always answer them that they should be doing the same. I’m a big fan of this way of thinking that life is only, you only have one life so you have to live it, you have to enjoy every little moment because you never know. So I would say that I don’t know why, but I’m really good with this thing of work-life balance, maintaining the stress. Obviously you have moments that it’s impossible to handle, but most of the time I’m good with that.

Kyle Knowles: I like that. I like your attitude of YOLO, right? You only live once. And you had mentioned, is it FACO? Am I saying that right? FACO? Yes. Is the visionary of the company. What’s your other partner’s name?

Roger Einstoss: Fede. Federico. It’s like Federic.

Kyle Knowles: Yeah. Okay. Fede. And what is his role? And then what is your role?

Roger Einstoss: Federico is the operational guy. I used to work in that seat, in the operational role, but three or four years now, I just moved from that role because that’s the real stressful thing, being in the operations. So he’s running the operation much better than I used to do it. And my role is… Being in the sales team, leading the sales team, talking with clients, discovering new opportunities that we have with them, going to events, being the face for the company. And obviously leading as a CEO, the conversations with people, but not the day-by-day conversations. That things are over feathered and the other ones are on me.

Kyle Knowles: Awesome. So you’re leading. Yeah. And what is the difference in your mind between leading and managing?

Roger Einstoss: It’s a little bit philosophical and not. I think that when you are leading, you are inspiring people to do things because they really buy the idea. They really believe that that’s the way of doing the things. And when you are managing, it’s like more transactional. It’s like, okay, you are good organizing others’ time, others’ tasks, and saying, okay, you have to do A, B, and C, and this is the order. That’s managing and dealing with the day-by-day people issues. But when you have like difficult situations with people in your company, that’s the moment where, or even, difficult situations in the company, like, I know, finding people or losing big clients, those kind of things, you have to be more leader than manager. And it’s difficult. And I don’t believe that I’m the best person doing that. But I just try to do my best.

Kyle Knowles: I bet you do a really good job. I mean, you’ve been in business for over 10 years. So I’m sure you’re a fantastic CEO and leader. And you care about people. And I feel like you have empathy as well, just from our two conversations together. Okay, just a few more questions. I have a lightning round of questions. But before that, since you said you travel a lot, what’s the favorite place you’ve ever traveled to? And what’s a place you have to travel to before you die that you’ve never been to?

Roger Einstoss: My favorite city in the world is New York. I went five times, six times, but I still remember the first time I went when I saw Times Square. And for people from Latin America or especially Argentina, we grew up watching movies from the States, from Hollywood. And most of the movies are made in New York. So being in New York, it’s always for me like being in a movie. So I would say that it’s one of my my favorite cities in the world not for living. I Would never live in New York But for visiting or working and a place that I have to go before dying. I Want to know like some weird place like I know Alaska for instance or Groenlandia, I mean some place that it’s not normal to go because I also have my pending list going to China or Japan, but I know that I will do it eventually because it’s like a touristic place. But going to the Antarctica or Greenlandia, Alaska, I know are places that you say, or at least I think, okay, these places are where we are and you will go only once in your life. Yeah. Right now, like I told you, I have small children, two and six years old. So for me, the best plan is going to Mexico or to Punta Cana or even here in Argentina to a beach, a place with swimming pools because they are really small. But I’m planning to resume my long trips whenever I can.

Kyle Knowles: I love those answers. Okay, I just have a final round of a lightning round of questions for you. We’ll just go through these quickly. What’s your favorite candy bar?

Roger Einstoss: The Hershey’s, yeah.

Kyle Knowles: Hershey’s with almonds or just Hershey’s plain?

Roger EinstoRoger Einstoss: Well, no, with almonds.

Kyle Knowles: Okay. Favorite cereal?

Roger Einstoss:Cereal, the Froot Loops. Mac or PC? Mac, without any kind of doubt.

Kyle Knowles: I love it. Google or Microsoft?

Roger Einstoss: Google.

Kyle Knowles: Dogs or cats?

Roger Einstoss: Dogs.

Kyle Knowles: And the last two questions I have for you, Roger, and then we’ll call it a day. But what’s the hardest thing about being an entrepreneur? And what’s the best thing about being an entrepreneur?

Roger Einstoss: The worst thing is having to make difficult decisions with people. Like, I know, fighting people because you can’t support them, not because of performance, it’s also hard, but, you know, when you lost a big client and you have to reduce your company, that’s the hardest thing for me, for sure. And the best thing, it’s the ability to change someone else’s business and also life with people, with talent. You know that here in Latin America for someone to get a job for the States and having their salary in US dollars and those things makes a huge difference against working for a company in Argentina. So we are not only helping and giving a benefit for companies in the U.S. and helping businesses to have being like more cost efficient and have like good talent, amazing talent, but also we are helping people here in Argentina to change their lives. maybe to move from their parents’ house or moving from like a bad neighborhood to a good one. So seeing people that can improve their life thanks to your company, it’s something really powerful.

Kyle Knowles: Those are great answers. I love those answers. And it sounds like entrepreneurship has not only changed your life, but you’re helping to change the lives of others. And so that’s just a great story. And I want to thank you, Roger, for being on Maker, Manager, Money podcast. I wish you and Fetty and Facko another 10 years in business, if not 20 or 30 more years in business. I think you have something going on. down in Argentina that United States companies can tap into. And I just really appreciate you taking your time talking about your entrepreneurial journey and sharing insights into entrepreneurship, AI, and the other things we’ve discussed today. So thank you so much.

Roger Einstoss: I really, I really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you so much for the invitation, for having me in your show. Also, good luck for all your endeavors.

Kyle Knowles: Thank you.